one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is this this podcast is all about how to make content marketing, really efficient and really targeted at all that. And I haven't had any one of the podcast yet so far who's really focused on a niche and your company is, you know, specializes in law firms for Content marketing and that sort of thing. So I thought I really, really, really cool to get your take on, you know, if there are niche-specific things that people need to do to focus on specific audiences. I figured you have really awesome Insight on that. So welcome. Thank you. Nice. Nice. Where do I start going to jump in and answer? Question would help when it's firm. Yeah. I was wondering, have you always been in marketing and PR, or did you read what a generalist? 

Tamara: I personally have been more in. I mean, my background is more. So SEO and marketing for small businesses. Just the general overarching thing with this role that I'm in a Postali. I actually Focus again on law firms, but not just any law firm, solo to mid-sized law firms. So definitely still in the small business Arena, but more specific to lawyers who have started their own practice. 

Ashley: That's really cool. Do you find a lot of people come to your company because they're interested in working with someone who has worked specifically with their type of business. Is that is that a reason someone would work with your company?

Tamara: Yeah, so I mean Law Firm digital marketing in general even just law firm SEO is a very competitive space and it's not necessary. It's not necessarily the case that someone else can't do it, but there are a lot of things you need to be mindful of when you're doing a lot legal marketing. So you have to be considerate and mindful of any policies and regulations that they must follow from the bar so that they are, you know, not violating any of those. 

You also have to be aware of the terminology. So the reason that we stand out is simply because we, you know, focus on On law firms all day every day. And so we understand what works? What doesn't work. And we do offer some exclusivity depending on the market, but we are also very transparent about what we can do for them, what we can't do for them at school. 

Ashley: And I would think in terms of what the work required on the client, and it's probably lot less work for them because they don't have to orient you to procedures and policies and I mean they have their own of course, but in terms of like general law, they do need to make sure that I'm sure they already know that you folks are into that. 

Tamara: Yeah, basically. Basically, I mean, one of the cool things is our leader of content on one of our main content writers. She actually has a JD 

So when it comes to content, she knows what guidelines need to stay within she understands law. She understands what we shouldn't say, like one of the things we don't do is we don't refer to our clients as experts for an example. So it's just because it's not something that we want to do. I'm PR, it's a little strange because I have to say they're an expert, but we typically always want to share that. We're giving legal advice that they're not necessarily. Experts are only giving, their knowledge based on the practice area and the state They're in because laws can vary by state by, County by City inches can vary a lot. So we know God, we also are leaders. They, you know, they work with law firms. Before from Business Development. SEO marketing. Building websites are doing the whole thing. So they understand the scope of like legal marketing and they are really good at helping small Law Firm. So, when they come to us where, you know, very transparent, our sales processes vary 

I don't want to say intense because intense makes it feel like it's aggressive. It's not, it's just I really feel like. What I love about our team is that we tell them again. What we can when we cannot do, we actually call ourselves a marketing fiduciary. Meaning that even if it doesn't benefit us, we will tell you the truth. That's a good value. Proposition that specializes in law. 

Ashley: That's really interesting because I, I've mostly been a generalist more for the nonprofit world like as a consultant cool. But yeah, it's really cool. But a year or two ago decided that I needed to be a little more focused. I just wanted to be 

I just wanted to learn more about one specific thing or the needs of a specific community. And I found that I wasn't really able to do that. If I was just trying to be everything to everyone and it's also like impossible to rank in SEO for that. Of course, you know all that. But yeah, it's some as a consultant. I find it's really sometimes difficult to convince people that trying to be everything to everyone isn't like the best option. And yeah, I do you want to counter that with clients that they are more inclined to want to share to cast a wide net force and the narrow in on something or they are they receptive? And just listen to what you guys.

Tamara: I would say, our clients are very focused. There. They are. You know, I'm a personal injury lawyer. I'm a criminal defense lawyer. They're very focused. We have not faced that usually when they come to us. I have seen clients. Ants who maybe they were doing way too much. And when they come to us, they decide to actually be more specific with what practice area, they're going to focus on. So we've actually had them coming in already saying, I want to focus on these types of cases and I'm not willing to go outside of that but that again, that depends on if they're like, you know, one lawyer who owns her own Law Firm versus like if they have a team if they have a team it's more than likely that they have people within the firm. 

That focus on different practice areas and that's where it's like the firm itself. As a brand is not being General. They might still fall under again personal injury, but maybe they have one person who's really, really focused on car accidents, another who's super focused on, like medical malpractice and another one that's focused on The injury aspect so like wrong, you can talk about wrongful death or anything with that. So it really is a matter of 

How big they are. And so, you'll start to see teams happen, more like mid-sized firms. Small firms may still have it. But most of our most apart, like, most of the time. I'm sorry, they are actually very specific and focused on a very specific case. Nice. Yeah, and he's and he's fine with their marketing goals that overall people are You know, looking mostly to Target like a person who would write the check, or are they looking for like more referral type marketing or there any trends like that? Or it's a little bit of both, a lot of lawyers do refer like, people that they may not necessarily be practicing in that specific type of law to another. So an example would be there, there could potentially be a case in family law. For example, that if you are a 

We focusing on divorce cases. You may end up in a situation where you could like be helping a couple that has to like one's American. One Is Us immigrant and you may not be able to speak too much to the immigration side because his own practice area. And so you may like if something comes up with in the case, you may you know, work with an immigration lawyer or refer them to an immigration lawyer because yes, you do divorce, but that actual type of law is not your specialty. T, so that does happen, but I mean, for the most part is still specific. It's still when it comes to marketing. They also, you know, they definitely a lot of them have really great websites or that's again, that's mostly why they come to us in the beginning is website and then we offer the content and the SEO with it. So it really makes sure their online presence is start like, you know, set up. Well, we also provide ongoing content and then usually that's where I come in with the pr is I only come in after they've had their website. 

It and launched. And, you know. And then the blog post are continuously happening again with that being very SEO focused. Also like understanding their practice area, getting their approval. Like it's a very again, I don't want to use the word intense but it's a very collaborative process. We want to again, make sure that we're being that, you know, marking fiduciary that were running things by them, getting them approved by them. Making sure they're involved in the process, making sure they understand. Like why we're choosing certain colors over the others like the strategy like there's a lot that goes into it. And then after that's all like that Foundation is set up. That's where I come in and I will help them with PR. 

Ashley: That's interesting. Yeah, makes sense to me. I find usually I mean I don't I don't do websites or anything anymore. But I found like what you're saying. I found usually what they what people want is, they want just to have a presence like to begin with. We are starting from ground zero and then they you kind of have to direct them where to go after that. Grab. Yes. Yeah, so I was actually, I'm glad 

Outside half because I was actually wondering what that what that, what's the word. What's that flow would look like for a company like yours because some companies it's it's more problem-oriented, you know, someone's trying something and it's not working and they're just like looking to replace something that they have already. There just doesn't work. So that's really interesting. 

Tamara: Yeah. I mean, we are technically following a problem because again with you know, lawyers being like, Really aren't come from an SEO perspective. One of the most competitive Industries are in the top five and we Basically are making sure that everything from, you know, website development which are designed to branding to, you know, local SEO, especially very, very impactful for our clients link building which can, you know, in a way be really integrated with PR, you know, creating content for them. We make sure that all the pieces of digital, like digital marketing that we know of 

Today, all works well together. And so it's more of actually talking to a teammate yesterday. We're in the process of creating this infographic called like our hierarchy of needs out for law. Firms, kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs because you could do SEO to a site but if it's not, you know, technically sound and structurally, you know, set up to perform. Well, then the SEO is only going to go so far and also force not user-friendly or visually appealing. The SEO is also good. 

Are so we really have this approach of you can come to us with a very specific problem. You know, I mean totally fine, but our accounts team really make sure that we are addressing and telling them the truth. That's why that marketing fiduciary is so important. We actually trademarked that because it's really a core part of what we offer is like, yes, we can do it all, but we want to make sure we're doing what you need. Not just the problem that you're seeing. Because, you know, I always felt. Yeah, exactly elephants about business owners. I love small business owners. I love working with them. However, because business owners tend to be in their business a lot. Sometimes they don't like they're not working like above or outside of the business. So we consider ourselves an extension of them and are able to tell them like, hey from a strategy perspective. This is better. This is what you need. And again, it's for us, it started this like project meeting, you know, after we've done the proposal and got them signed on everything. 

We don't have a meeting with them to really understand more in-depth, what they like, what they don't like because you'd be surprised people also have this idea of like all of the other person's website because it looks this way and our creative director, Sam. He's really big on saying like Okay, why? Like, because looking a certain way, does it really tell you the strategy behind why that other clients, you know, other client? Other lawyers website is set up that way. There's always a strategy behind why it looks the way it looks.

Ashley: Yeah, I do some personal branding work and I've noticed the exact same thing. Is that a lot of people don't quite understand that branding is just identity. It's not about looking cool. It's not about having the trendiest websites about, how are you connecting to the audience that you want to engage with? How did, how did they know that you're credible to that specific audience? How do you build our way more? And that's yeah. It's I'm glad you brought that up because I find that it's sometimes hard to make that case specially because there's so many agencies and Freelancers out there who are just about trying to make you look trendy. And that's because it our branding is being about like looking trendy instead of fashion, right? We're not fashioning and identity but like identifying the identity. Yeah. Yeah, 

Tamara: It's interesting. I mean this being my basically my first time working with -- there's only it's something that, beyond lawyers like service providers. It gets pretty lost in translation a lot when you're talking to service providers because they might be looking at with a product business. If you think of like a fashion e-commerce store, they should look trendy and they're selling fashion. It's really different reason why they look trendy versus when you're talking about service providers, depending on who your audience is, you could be trendy or you need to like be in the middle, or you need to be very professional. If you're going to work in the government, for example. 

You need to be very professional. And the best way to say is have more of an elite tight feeling to your website, because I mean, your work for the government, they want to work with people. Usually at these for my assumption that have a very specific present versus like they may not want to work with. Like if you're going more for like, you're a lawyer to Consumers and your lawyer, chairs consumer base that like says the word babe, or boss, or someone that like that different client all together. I mean, even the down to the colors, the setup, it's just completely different. So, even within our client, like, if you were to take 

Look at our clients, we have one client, is Firm is pro top, like his name is protoss. And basically his website is all like black and white and very elite and very like it just gives you that feel like you need to put on a suit and then we have other clients like one of the clients that I do a lot. I mean, I talked with him a lot. He's our divorce lawyer like family lawyer, but really specializes in divorce cases, you know, it's still professional, but it's a little like, a just a little bit more laid back about to the point that you're just, like, I can walk in here and like, Be any other way, but definitely more laid back. And I didn't feel as a leak and again, it's because it's just a different client base. I mean, when he's a family lawyer, he's usually helping his name is Jonathan breeding. He's usually helping clients, you know going through a very tough time of their life. It usually involves child custody and some cases so you don't want to be unapproachable in that situation vs protoss here. 

Really working with, you know, I mean, very, like white collar crime, like, just high-profile cases, like very high-profile cases. And so yes, if your high profile, that's it. That's completely different like completely different. Yeah. And what is that on your end or any kind of anyone who's doing project management? How do you, how do you manage all those different expectations and different because it's because they're serving different types of Audiences. It's if I imagine is probably hard to repurpose certain things or repurpose certain workflows because everyone has different expectations or serving different audiences. How do you how do you keep that as simple as possible? I would say that you're not pulling your hair out. Well, yeah, I would do to our team. So we had, we're a small agency. I mean, on the scope of everybody else, but we have about 160 17 between 17 and 19 people. 

I think we're more than that now, but when I started this about, it was about 17. And so we have to account managers will actually, one is my boss. He's a CEO of the company and we have to probably on a project manager team of two people and we use a system called right which basically allows us to have blueprints for what we all need to do for website design. And then what we all need to do for like PR what we all need to do for their content, so we have systems in place to help us. 

Manage all those projects and then our accounts team. Like I said, which includes my boss. He act, they all, you know, they have monthly weekly, whatever cadence is necessary for the client. They touch base with them. And then, of course, or able to chat with them via email or a quick call, whenever they need to be. And then from my perspective, I come in strictly for the pr side of things and so I will chat with them and get their comments via email. I basically, we basically work with them. The way that's most convenient for them at the end of the day. So, unless her needs to be a, you know, I would say a push for a different method. Like, I know, in my case with PR, like finger very Dynamic. So, sometimes I just need them to call me. It's just that, you know, it's that basic. And so he's like, as I built my report them. I've, you know, been able to have some of their cell numbers and I call them a really need them or I fit, you know, figure out a strategy, like, with some clients. I have a coding system. 

Can tell them like this is a level 3. I need you to respond right now and I actually talked to me right away or I have some clients were just responsive to everything and that's just how it works. Like they will respond to anything. I found them and that makes me -- that's a different relationship from a PR perspective versus another person who I have to give them like levels of what to respond to, because I'm giving them the option to say. “No, I don't want to do this.” So there's a lot of that but there's also an education. Like, how do I say this as someone we talked about with like SEO and branding, I would say our team, our agency really communicates the website SEO and like strategy, very, very well in the beginning because that's usually what they're coming to us for. That's what they need right away. When it comes to like providing an upsell opportunity or like different services like PR, most of my job becomes education at that point. 

Usually I'd also lean on the team for educating the clients on, “Hey, like, we really I need to make sure they understand that PR is different from advertising for us.”

Because yes, advertising 

Ashley: Amen. 

Tamara: I mean, I feel like almost every professional appreciate that statement because that's usually the biggest struggle with PR is not necessarily. I mean getting the meat. Like the placement etceteras is a struggle to. It's not like, oh I can just get it tomorrow, but it's the education part only. I am like, again, even an agency. We still have to remind clients that sometimes their news. The news that they think is news, is not timely, or it could just be the fact that it's not relevant or what? My favorite question is. Why should anyone care? Yes. Why should they care? I mean, like, why you have to give me a, why Beyond? Like it's about you? Because it's really not about you. If you are, whereas its advertising, it's about. You like, you control that narrative, you are paying to say like it's a very transactional relationship and I think PR is math. I said okay. Yeah, I just really feel like that. I mean that's just what it is. So it's even SEO. 

Like, I like to think PR is kind of like SEO where SEO has a very specific, you know structure. It's still very manual, but in the long run, it really helps your like online presence more so than even social media and PR just supports that basically, in my mind. But it still takes time and that's just another aspect of, you know, PR and even SEO is very different from what I like to call it advertising. Like if you want to do Facebook ads because we also offer the ads as well. So our clients are again doing very different aspects of internet marketing but it takes a you have to manage expectations the entire time. Yeah, you know, in order for a relationship to be successful, basically. 

Ashley: One of the reasons I became a coach actually, it's really funny that you mention that because one of the whole reasons I became a coach. I made a Twitter Thread about it is I found in order to get what I needed from the client or in order to prevent them from creating silos or we're encouraged them to break a silo. I had to first illustrate that that it should be organic. It should be about about, you know, supporting a community and getting attention that way rather than as you say advertising yourself and from yeah, herself and all that. And I found the only way I could get the information I needed to do that community engagement or to encourage certain a certain pathway for us to work list. To do that education piece, and I found once I did that’s when they started to realize that things shouldn't be as siloed as they are. Yeah, it's I just realized, like, why am I doing this for free? Like the only way I can get what I used to coach, but that's not in the scope of work. I'm not getting paid to do that. And I also just realized that, at least the type of clients that I work with. They generally They have a specific kind of goal, but they're not really sure they don't quite have a full idea of how to get there or they might be putting our, they might some think something's a priority as you say, but it's actually not because it's not in service to their whatever it is. They're trying to do. So, do you find that? 

So, you're more the education side, but you you come on on board later. Do you find sometimes that the company on there and has to reconfigure certain things? They're doing because they realize from your coaching that, oh, you know, sales should be talking to marketing and they're not or, you know, we're not doing enough of this, and we should be doing this based on her advice like Define. They kind of have to regroup at all. And then come back before they can be ready to do something? 

Tamara: Yeah, some of the few questions that I asked, which usually leads me or like. I had I put opens a door for me to coach actually, is, you know, like, like what are your goals because again, in advertising, your goals are to get them to something like, you know, call to action like right away, you know, mean like right away and then far, it's definitely more. I mean, people don't like the phrase. It's this early, but it's more about brand awareness, but it's really about making someone more curious. You're trying to inspire them to be curious about you. And like, again, you're putting your name out there or the fact that you are a thought leader, or an expert in this area, too. 

You know, be known. So that when someone comes to that point of, they may need a divorce lawyer. We hope not. I really hope that if it happens or we have a few bankruptcy lawyers, and I and we also have a really that relief lawyer as well. And so like that coming was really big in the pain Democrat. Like a lot of people have been, you know, experiencing a lot of financial difficulties, but even beyond that like they even though they help people like the 

Game of, you know, this is a really bad situation. We're helping you, you know, get out of this. They also know a lot about Financial Health. So even just helping someone learn like how to be financially healthy is a way to get your name out there in a build awareness. So, I think it's not really like they have to like again, redo everything. Because again, when they're there, where art, there are client makes it my work there, but when there are client We already are addressing all of that from the beginning, because Do the website they have to regroup anyway, right, you know what I mean, but when they get --

Ashley: That's actually, I'm sorry. I interrupted you there. That's actually really intriguing to me because Like usually, If someone comes to me, and I finally have to regroup or whatever. I have to kind of put them in that direction and then he like make sure that I follow up with them later. 

Tamara: Right. Exactly. 

Ashley: That's interesting from your end because that's already done before they come to you. So you're not even reconfiguring people. You're just coaching them once. They're already equipped. I'm kind of jealous. 

Tamara: Actually, I mean, One of those things where it's just like, I appreciate that comment. It's definitely more of a, it's because I'm in an agency. That's the benefit. And then it's also because of our core values as a company. Like it's, you know, I've worked in different companies. I also know like, I love SEO. I love PR, love content like three things. I actually do love in life and I pay attention to them, even outside of work. And I think the biggest thing that I've seen, you know, in all my time lines and all my news feed is that everyone's trying to do everything at the same time and they are my God. Yes, you didn't like everyone's trying to do everything trying. I'm trying to do the branding that this, that this the sales did everything, at the same time, and I absolutely love you cannot stress, and I love it. Or company is willing to stay, like the fact that we even trademark the marketing fiduciary is in itself. Amazing. Because we are able to say, you know, what, if you're not ready for us, we're not going to force you to like work with us. We're going to tell you. You need to go do something else and then come back. And a lot of our clients have been 

People would probably say like, in contact with for a very long time before they actually became our actual client, but I love that we are willing to is right by them. And because we have that Foundation, that's the only reason my role that ends up being a lot of education and like walking them through the process and getting them more, you know, acclimated to what PR is whether it's reactive PR or corrective PR, and then also maybe saying like, you know what, maybe like the type of PR we need to do with me. Digital and just guess blog post. Because lawyers are also very busy people. So the fact that I have an account team and just teammates in general, that set that, you know, expectations in the beginning is the only reason I have to do that. Now if I was by myself, so we would have a different conversation altogether because again what I mean, I love Twitter, I love 

I think Twitter and Pinterest are my favorite tool, social media platforms, and I'm kind of like, you know, tapping into Clubhouse here and there, but something I just don't have the time to sit there and listen to everything all day. But I definitely love the fact that, you know, the internet has become this place of information. We can all get information really quickly. But I am also seeing that a lot. Like I said, a lot of businesses feel like, especially when they're small businesses, they get very overwhelmed by having to do everything at once. So then when it comes to like, 

Those who are Consultants like you or coaches or like that, you're like a solopreneur, whether you have, you know, take contractors or whether you have a team that's in house or contract is whatever it is. They come to you with these expectations of. I want this now, but they don't understand that. Maybe if we're looking at a hierarchy of needs situation. They're not thinking about my website about set up to really be successful. So if I was to do pr I mean. They're going to go look at my website. 

Ashley: You have an agency and there are lots of people who can make sure that the client has everything they need and remove all those silos and things. But yeah, that's really awesome. Because a lot of agencies don't do that. They just read exactly. Just take the work and they'll do that scope of work whether it's the right time or not. And then I thought I would imagine that's why a lot of agencies. You look at the results on their websites. It's like, we got this, many Twitter followers, and it's all vanity metrics and I imagine you, probably imagine, that's probably partly because they just take work. Regardless of suitability, I mean if possible I one of the things that are there just an apt say like confirm where did I, which either but I will say One. That again. 

Tamara: This is a difficulty that even I have when I'm coaching about PR versus advertising and like just, you know, even generally just like a website is very tangible as or very tangible PR and like, even social media just has this intangible like aspect to it and SEO does too. But the thing about SEO is like really in the middle and when you have like your website, your strategy, your branding also, you know, set up correctly and SEO, then comes into play with are like amazing team. Basically, in our case. They actually from a Lawyer for Effective. They start to see that they get case results. So we do have tracking in place to show them. Those numbers. Like, are they getting cases? Are they getting calls? Like, just something as simple as like, Google my business. Like we have all of that set up to show them the results to, and yeah, like those are not vanity because it's what keeps them in business. Right? Right, right. Yeah. And 

Even like a PR placement. Like, how do I, you know, how do I prove that? That's beneficial while that's where that conversation. And again, it's an education piece that I always have to do. But it's like, you know, getting you in Forbes for the right thing is awesome, but it may not necessarily leading to clients in the same way as getting on a local blog or a podcast. Or I mean, maybe even being just shared on social media by a platform that actually, you know, is related to what you do like, for example, if your criminal defense cases. So in those cases, a lot of states, require the person who was charged and convicted to have an interlock ignition device with basically stops them from driving, the car, without before they have to basically test their alcohol level before they drive. Yeah, and so yes, getting you into a huge. You know, Forbes thing, would be awesome or New York Times that there's this big story but Honestly, that's where myself and the SEO team is going to say. Well, it's better for you to, you know, have a blog post on the interlock safe, device companies website, because your audience needs that, you are actually help them in the case. So, it's like a match made in heaven. 

Ashley: Yeah, I find that too. 

Once I worked for one client, they were promoting an event and they Like their goals, basically to get a bunch of influential quote-unquote, influential people and companies who have a lot of followers to post about it. And the idea behind that was that, you know, if a bunch of people with eye following, do it and do it and they're kind of intellectual sphere that eventually, it will help us reach this outcome. And I had to reroute them and say, like, it doesn't matter how many followers someone has, it isn't me matter, even if they get a lot of traffic like if it's not the right fit, especially 

What your target audience is looking for? It's not going to work. It doesn't matter. How many eyeballs are on it. Isn't that exactly, none of that stuff matters? So yeah, another reason I became a coach because I don't know where this idea comes from, but it's surprisingly common that. 

Tamara: Yeah, you know, if you get into a high level publication or whatever, that things will just fall into place and it just that's not enough sales, works. Really, correct, correct? And I think it's because, you know, like, I think was in Vice. Vice. I have a friend from like, one of my former position to we always talk about like Martin's not marketing companies, but like the term is MLM, is but Vice had just create like, they just released a story. It was on YouTube and then it was on their website and Snapchat, their releases story about lularoe and basically in context a Logging company and they have, you know, independent. 

Is who technically are their own business, who are selling the clothing and there's not anything inherently wrong with that structure. But the there is a specific policy that outlines. What's a pyramid scheme, and what's not. And even in those situations when we're done, we'll bring it up is because when I watch that story, I realized that at the end of the day, no matter what business you're in, you have to work for it. And I think there are some things are some promises that That people make and they try to say that it makes it easier like, oh, we can get you there, faster we can do, you know, we can make sure you don't have to work a lot. But at the end of the day, like, you can use any form of marketing, like any form of marketing, that will be beneficial for your type of business. It's still going to require you to work and I think Eddie at the base of, like, all of these mindsets, is that people think they can control other people do, but you really can't even if you were the only person in that industry. 

You have to prove to them why your offer is the solution that they need slide out, right? It can't prove that. Then they couldn't eat it all day, right? They can maybe even want it or desire all day, but it doesn't, if you can't tell me what the solution is. I'm not going to decide to give you money. Yeah, the analogy I always use is not always, but let's say, you know, even as 

First of all, is the narrow heaven, but even if Kim Kardashian tweeted about this thing that you want to put out there, that doesn't mean just because she's super famous. It doesn't mean people are going to buy it because no one's expectations changed because a certain person put it out there. Yeah. I also say like She would never even do that. Because if you look at what really successful, especially affiliate, marketers or anyone who does sponsorships, they're always hyper targeted. It's always. It's you might seem like they're just, you know, Shilling a grill, one minute. And then applies. The next, man, that there's actually like an underlying goal. There's an underlying expectation that they're that they're doing, you know, they might be serving a specific audience. They might need 

You know, trying to solve a specific problem. Problem, you know, like it's saving time for people, for example, or something. That's broad, you know, saving time for moms or whatever. If you if you look at it from that perspective. You see why all those why the person is targeting all those specific things. So it's never it might it might appear random that might appear on targeted and you, she doesn't, you know, doing whatever. But anyone who makes anyone, who does sponsorship or an affiliate marketing for someone. The only reason I get success for that client is because They're serving a need for their specific audience. Correct? Exactly. As I find once I use that kind of analogy. Usually, people can't kind of come around to it. Oh, it's about like solving a problem. It's a bone. Yeah, and I find usually, people are a little more receptive to that. It's just, they don't because I guess if you're not marketing, it's harder to see, you know, how those different kind of sponsorships. For example, are related. Yes, your it might appear random. I don't know. Yeah, I mean my appearance. 

Them where it's just, sometimes a lack of understanding that field, but it sometimes I again, it could just be, they still have a consumer mindset about something because consumer, you take, like, crushing nowadays. You you can like information at. I mean, we it's everywhere. It's accessible. All-time get like 20 retargeting ads on Facebook. Yeah, like I mean Instagram, it's everywhere. So like ads are everywhere and especially when you're a small business owners again. You look like one of the biggest I love working with small business owners. But this is one of the, I guess flipsides everything is that they are stressing themselves out or overwhelmed trying to compete with the same strategy that like McDonald's or like Kim Kardashians, you enjoyed like that is nice. That's a completely different strategy. Yes. They might have a platform. Yes. I might have all of these things but like for example, especially SEO friend and this is a half with our clients, but I have, you know, how comfortable people just in my everyday life and a lot of times they want to go National and 

Everyone focus on local SEO and the end the day. Like, that's where you actually have an advantage. Because in order for like someone like Amazon, for example, to really like beat you in those results. They have to have a location in that City and Amazon, have a location everywhere. Whereas, for you, when you're looking for again, like a lawyer, you're gonna want someone that's in your state that understands you or state laws understands, you know, the little nuances of each, you know County. A or Township like you're not going to hire someone in a different state. So, wildly again, our clients don't do this, but the question is like for other in other areas and other industry, like why would you just skip that altogether? Because you're so focused on competing with the person at the top? Like it's just that's not the strategy going to use so it's really, I don't know. I don't have a lot of theories about. I don't know what the specific coin is. That's true. But I just feel like we talked to different people. It's a lot of like, okay, are you off to prepare to do this Fitness? Aspect of marketing? 

Because it's all marketing is just like are you prepared to do it? Are you committed to doing it especially for the pr or SEO or even social media approach because that's going to take time to see results that you really want to see or are you just better suited to like really first of all upgrade your website because you ask not you know up to par yet or you know, really go take a step back and go to your business strategy because you're not you're not really sure where your audience that you're trying to Target McDonald's already in the audience or Amazon's on this but They are not your audience. If you tell me who your audience is. Who's your person? How do you speak to them? Maybe have to go all the way back to the drawing board and those conversations tend to scare people and when you're especially, if you're like a solopreneur and you're starting a business that can really also feel overwhelming. And almost like like I'm like, I feel like I'm not making any progress and there is that there's a I mean aspect is empathy that like, I'm sure you have as a coach and my eat I even have it. 

Roll and like our teammates have Li got just part of our core values that you know, again think about that person first is that you have to be, you know, like hey, I know this may not be what you want to hear. This is also, I'm sure it's hard because again when you own your own business, that's a lot. But being honest and saying like this will help you be successful in the long run. Versus we just put like a Band-Aid on something right now and then it just becomes another horrible wound or scar late. Sure, and then it opened back up. We got to start all over. It's one of those. You have to be willing as the professional to have that conversation. And yes, there were still be professionals and agencies and all of the above that will decide not to do that. And it can feel challenging because you feel like okay, they're getting the clients faster. But at the end of the day it's better to be in a situation like again, a post' Ali where We decide to be honest to tell them what actually will work for them. Even if we don't provide it as the commitment. Even if we don't provide it, we're going to tell you what will actually work for you. And I mean, honestly, I'd rather be on that team even if it has lower than be on the team that eventually like you despise them or you don't like them or you see the dropping your business. Like, I always think of their knowledge, I think of it like the teacher in school, who I'm not saying every teacher has to be hard on you, but versus those that just let me slide or didn't push me or anything like that. I didn't have that many of those types of teachers, but I really appreciate the ones that late maybe give me some tough. Love really told me, you know, you needed you need to do better. You can do better or no. I know you want to do this, but you need to address this problem or like you need to improve in this area because they have made me a better person. 

So I think of business in the same way and I'm like, again really proud to be an agency that thinks that way like collectively. 

Ashley: Nice, it's awesome to be known as a company and an intelligent individual who give it to you straight. Like I think I'm so glad that you pointed out that that's really important to your lifetime value with a client. Because exactly that's who they're going to say. It's not just about them sticking with you. It's like they're going to if you're dishonest and this straight with them, they're probably going to refer you and all those, all those things are part of your 

Someone so exact and PR in a way to yeah, you know, I was telling a teammate and like PR is really about not just building a good reputation with protecting her reputation. And so it's hard to protect her reputation that, like, all the other, like, like departments are teammates, or even just like, it's a company's core values don't match up then like it would be really hard to protect their reputation in general. 

Tamara: Oh, yeah, so If I'm just looking for a PR standpoint, that's probably also why I enjoy my role because I know that my teammates have my back, not just because I know them, but also because I know like our collective core values are all aligned. Like, we're not, you know, we're not like trying to outshine, the other like dirt, very collaborative, very much about the person that we are helping the client that were helping and open to learning. And also open is doing like they didn't do that, right? Okay, let me adjust and make sure all in the same page. 

So I mean everything is always a work in progress, everywhere in life and but It's nice to have that and it can also be discouraging if that's not how everyone else operates. Because again, sometimes they get the quick sale or the quick win. But even when you're just doing it yourself and you're running the business, I I personally feel that you keep telling the truth keeping transparent keep creating content, you know, coaching building websites, whatever you're doing in marketing. Keep doing that the right way and the oddest way. 

And you will outlast the competition. I have no oubts about that in my mind. 

Ashley: Yeah. And also you're talking about a lot of not your clients, the people in general, they want to go. Yeah, she'll are they want to go International right off the bat and from a business development perspective that doesn't work either because I mean even if you did get a lot of clients off the bat that's going to weigh far, exceed your capacity per, so you're going to be doing things like have asked and that's going to To hurt you. The way the patient on aren't even broader scale, so correct. It really doesn't pay to. There's like, I can't think of one reason it pays to try to be everything to everyone. I mean some people might think. Well, you know, we as you say we've got the quick sale or be going words or whatever, but I think when you when you show a client that's actually not your goal and that might not even be a helpful goal. You might be might actually be counterproductive. If you look at it in a certain way. They might be more focused on. 

At least, I hope that's more growth oriented and more sustainable. Right? I'm just trying to get a quick something. Yeah, I mean at the end of the day there is all the flea this. Potential like potential that you may say something. Like, and be honest in someone may just not want to hear that. I mean, I know for a fact that that's something that if you are a freelancer, a consultant or I mean, even if you own a business and you can be having agency, you still have your soul concerned about it because, but if you have a team, I mean, you are basically responsible people's livelihood, so hot just so, I am pretty sure like ice. I don't know, for our agency, if that's the case, but I can, I can identify and like, you know, put myself in that mind to understand that if sometimes you feel like you're the tape, what work is there, but I mean, that's where the conversation about. 

And this happens a lot and I know it happened on my Twitter feed for business owners is learning how to fire a client. Maybe you still go forward with it and your guts. Like Hey, we're not be a good idea. But you like knowing to do this like Brutus table, like I get all those things and then you're like this is not working and then there's, you know, even in that, you know, position you can say like, hey, like, you know, I've worked with you. Like you can decide as a business owner, what your lines are, what your boundaries are and go prepare that also can happen and you can still be transparent the whole Time. And I mean, it's business is risky. I mean, it is just part of the same time. Like I feel like once you understand, like, I like to call your decision framework, like here's what I'm going to do here. So I'm not going to do. Here's how I know. This is a red flag. This is this is okay. This is like the yellow like that. It may be kind of situation. Once you're willing to be transparent. 

It doesn't mean it'll stop you from working for someone who may not understand or appreciate that. Because, sometimes, that could happen later down the road and you may have no control over that. But I still feel like, in those pieces. You will outlast everyone. 

Ashley: Yeah, I agree. And I also another reason I'm big on being because I'm, I give it to the external, the time. I mean, I'm super nice and professional about it. That I am known for not sugarcoating things and And one of the reasons I like that is I find it's helpful for vetting clients because if they're still putting up a wall when I'm being honest with them, that tell and they're not willing to shift that tells me they're not a good fit. Yeah, it's just it's so for me, I'm not recommending this for everyone. But for me, that's my decision framework, you know, like, yeah. You, if we're not on the same page and I have my own little rules, you know, like if you go out of scope all the time and you know, I can't get you back on or whatever. That's one thing but I just think it's important for everyone. Anyone who's doing any marketing, whether it's for themselves, or for other companies that you need to have a system for vetting and honesty, I think is one of the best ways to set that up. 

Tamara: I mean if not the risk that you are really dancing with is that you will have resentment on both sides or one side like you're down the road and that is not. Give me that does not really help. Productivity or results? I mean, it doesn't help anything. If you're just like like this was a bad idea. I don't like this. I wish I was doing this or if that person is a client, even though you're working this resenting, like you can begin the results. Maybe that's not what they wanted as in the beginning. Anyway, so like having that way of wedding and really getting to the root of the matter. Like if the end goal that you're looking for, for example, is you want clients and with SEO, for example, I mean, he's a better example, if it's SEO, we always say you really need to wait for results at least six months. So if that's the expectation, we're telling you from the beginning and at your very core of the client, you really, really want results in three months. You should probably do ads, right? 

I believe that marketing should be holistic. You should be doing both the quick wins and the long term because they work very well together. But if you are just set on “I want stuff now” SEO is not for you like building the website design because you don't want to have an absence or early website. They're just going to go somewhere else, but again, like, sometimes the person doesn't even realize like the client doesn't even realize that that's what they really want. So wedding is also again, if you want to, if you look at the coach session in a way, but sometimes, as a on your bedding, whether you're a solopreneur like, or you have team, or your agency, or your corporation, like, no matter what stage of business you're in, you still have to have that approach. That's still part of the honesty is saying, like, Okay, I'm hearing you say this. I'm hearing to this is your goal. 

You know, can you confirm this is what you want and does it the time frame, you want? And because the solution, they may come to you for may not be what they actually want. And being honest. I'm not being honest about that, front could old again, could save you resentment on both sides. Because again, in the SEO situation, let's say we did SEO for a person. They got the results after six months to a year, but they don't feel they're getting them fast enough because it it's really based on that person finding you and then meeting you and no one can force them to click on your website. Stand by. No one. Can do that on this planet. And if you know someone that can I really want to meet that look. Um, but yeah, you know, no one can do that. 

Whereas an ad you're seeing what it's put my ad, you know, in the places where they use these specific words and you're not really you may not be targeting a specific person. You're targeting based on like what they're searching for and that potentially will give you a lot more people seeing you versus like waiting for, you know, again at six months to a year for the SEO to work and so you get the win faster, but let's say I'm doing again. I need to go this route first is this long-term again more organic passive marketing roles. 

Ashley: So it's just I mean business owners companies. No matter who they are, is a client. You definitely have to help them realize what solution they truly want as part of that vetting process just to you know, save both parties headaches and you and your company's process helps prevent things from going off or things, but if someone has an expectation and it's going to look different.

Tamara: Yes. Exactly. Like in a different direction. Do you find a blueprint helps? You see that early on so you can reroute it before it turns into something ugly. Yeah, because I mean, we're doing that betting in the beginning and before they're basically are signing anything, you know, things are going to work with us. They have the understanding and then our account managers make sure that they continue, you know, talking about that or making recommendations as time goes on. And an example, even if with SEO is be like sometimes topics just aren't trending as much. 

With bankruptcy or even divorce, January is always considered like a really huge divorce month, but with the pandemic and then also the financial difficulties people are facing and unemployment, some chose not to divorce because they didn't want to cause the other party or the other their partner or spouse to, like just end up in a really bad financial situation. 

So in cases like that, maybe January was still a high divorce month, but it wasn't as high as normal, you know, like pre-pandemic, right? So, even in those cases those are good time for us to like, you know, mention things like that or say like You know, okay, right now, all those cases, we have everything still set up. We're still tracking, you know, everything and maybe from this point, all we need to then think about. This is a good time to build your brand awareness and do PR or this is a good time to get you, you know, more visible and social media or, you know, we need to again, sometimes it just takes a little more digging to find this problem, but those things happen in a relationship with the client. Like, again, you can still valid, but you can control all the variables of life. It's right, you know, but it makes so many. 

Sure, did. Oh no. Go ahead. Go ahead. 

Ashley: Okay, I'm just gonna say you're making so many good cases for holistic, marketing and preventing silos. Because when you have silos, even if you're like a one-person show, if you have silos, you're not going to see where those pivots should happen or exactly or anticipate. That's something an expectation might not align with how things actually are. You can't, you can't foresee those things, at least not within a reasonable time frame, if you're really, really siloed. So, your sales and your marketing have to be together, and it was city has to be together under they, at least have to be talking to each other in some sort of way. 

Tamara: Yep. Yep. I really love the peso model from spin stuck because I feel like that is one of the best visual for professionals. I don't think it's really meant for someone who's like, is not in. 

marketing because I don't think they would understand or it would be an overwhelming. But basically she says like paying paid earned shared it on. So Kate is like, as you know advertising, as we know it own is your content, your blog post, like what you control, shared his social media and then I forgot earned. But learned is where we think we are friends and how those all integrate with each other. And again, I everyone's always trying to do all those at one time. Or they are like, oh, this one is the way like, I know, one thing that I see in my personal time with a lot of like social media is the way and I'm just like, that's not true. Like it's not sure you can become a tick. Tock start all of that. But like there is you know, operations. There's a wet again, a website. Like even looks like a spine is a great example. What if they decide to Shut It Down? Periscope just got shut down. Like it's just you 

And just look like I'm gonna put all my eggs in this one basket. Barbecue, live marketing, having lipstick, but you have to choose again, the types of marking that work best for you. Because even within like earned media, like I said, for some of our clients, I always I might say like, hey, they don't have all the time. It's not really going to be efficient or effective or even like a great experience. If I'm just constantly bothering them about opportunities, but they just don't have the kind of comment on them because now we're thinking credibility, right? So maybe the best thing to do is just contribute articles because we do have a contract. 10th team, they already trust us. 

Sometimes the best options is that's kind of PR that we're going to do is to guest blog posts and that's it. Dude. And I mean so like even within the peso model, it's still that concept of what is best for you. And they get when you bet that with someone and you talk through that with them. It's just a again, it's a better experience, better option, but there's no. I personally don't believe this is just me. I don't believe there's any marketing tactic. That's just a one size, fits all or something. 

I do not believe in that. 

Ashley: Yeah, I think one of the reasons I find and I'm just, this is just a theory that know this, but a lot of solopreneurs. Like if you see their retargeting ads or whatever and they're selling information product or whatever. If you look at the products, they're selling and the positioning and their website and The Branding and everything. It's pretty clear that they're trying to look like an agency, which is fine. I totally get that. At but there are also at the same time. Presenting. One thing is, if it's the right solution for everyone, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So I think, if people do want to be able to Pivot as you do, you know, so it's something not the right thing for someone at their time, with their expectations, or there, you know, positioning or whatever that you can, you can reroute them to say. Oh, focus on, you know, guest posts or whatever. 

I want to be able to Pivot like that on a solo career. I think they, they need to focus more on understanding, you know, having like a having their own blueprint of what expectations they should be prepared for people to have and then have pivots available for that. So for example, maybe that's maybe a partner with an ad agency or maybe actually, you know, kind of like a referral program some someone does want that. Then you assume get a referral or or 

Maybe if you do coaching and you do group coaching and someone needs education, then you can do that. And you know, it's just like our one once a month kind of thing. So it's not taking, you know, so there's all these different things that people can do to be able to follow, whatever the path of their clients are. I'm just I find it really frustrating that there's so many solopreneurs that are creating this idea that, if you have an information product, you can sell it to anyone, it will solve any problem. I just, I don't know where that's coming from. I'm wondering if maybe that's where a lot of that mythology comes from because the like, look, I got a Lambo because I only am --

Tamara: I think it's back to the idea of like a basic desire that a lot of people have recently as they want to make a lot of money quickly and the at like again, I mean one of our bankruptcy learned she tells me all the time. She says a lot of people 

The price of something is truly, what the cost is. So a lot of what you'll see. For example, I think I forgot. I know. Michelle Garrett. She's a PR professional. I love Michelle. Yeah, we were just so I don't love her but, you know, I know what you need. She shared something over the weekend about. And this is someone else that it was an article by someone else. They talk about how like a lot of people are trying to achieve six-figure greatly to the thing. Now, a postman. I wanted to fix bigger than two stick figures. And he's like, what does that mean that the people who are making five figures or like any less successful, which I personally don't think so either. 

But it's just as cognitive. I want to make more money with paper money. But any other day, what is it going to cost you? What is it going to require? What is it was systems are going to have to set up like what kind of operational structure you going to need? What kind of clients do you need? It's just, it's just it's a lot. There's so much that goes into it. But I think it's just this idea of like I think it's just a misunderstanding of business and I know everyone's not a fan of Gary Vee for example, but he did say that seems like years ago entrepreneurship. Was it really as it was a, like idealized as much as it is now and because entrepreneurship has become very idealized. It's also come with some misconceptions about what that road looks like probably people in it. I mean, again, I've seen it on Twitter a lot or something, but it's like when you 

Have 95 and own a business and I'm just, like, okay now. Yeah, there's so many things. So many of these like theories and these statements that come out. But, you know, I'm a strong believer that you may not be a person that needs to be an entrepreneur. 24/7. That might not be how your made-up, it might stress you out and you may not be feeling life. So the whole goal is to do what works best for you. Do what's healthy for you? Do it work with your bandwidth and do what's going to keep you fulfilled? Because the end of the day, you could have six figures if you miserable. So, you know again, that's why People like it in our pan are filled with, people decided to be, you know, I'm a solo lot, you know, attorney and that's what I do when I do have a support to you, but I'm the attorney that represents ever like come soon, you know, our firm or other lead, or I'm a person that I like a major team, and I have multiple offices and it's just at least with our clients as law firms. You never have that conversation, really, but I do know again from just like my personal experience, talking to people. It's a conversation that a lot of people 

...

Things that I made six figures, right? Like that's the price tag of my happiness and my fame, in my, you know, way to say that. I've made it on social media, right? But costs to get there. Like, I know for me, for example, like, I love my job at post Holly, you know, I also like to teach people about SEO on like on the side, and I also do content marketing but I have a family and I'm just not willing to sacrifice them. That's just that's my personal. That's my boundary. Just like I want to see my daughter grow up. You know, I want to I don't want I want to show her to work hard. But I also want to still retain my soul the process and that's my line. So I would be for some people like for me from a Time perspective. Like if I in order to make six figures, I have to work my job as well as you know. 

Working weekends nights not sleep, not be healthy, like, I'm a pass. So, maybe I just, I think a lot of people also, at least from what I've observed working with clients. Working people who have questions of people like me is, The the conversation about capacity is often never had, they want to reach. They want to get X goals, but they haven't worked out. Looking, is that scalable for you? And what are you going to do? What to do? We choose a certain point like we've been. What do you do? Good call birthday. The so, yeah, I'm almost. Yeah, exactly. I'm almost wondering if that would be a good pivot for me like, like just looking at helping people understand what their capacity is and I'm working within a flow that works for them and I 

Certainly understand this very well for myself. Not just because I'm a freelancer and I have to pay for things and all that. So first I have to, you know, make sure that I'm profiting and all that. But yeah, you know, I haven't bad neck problems. And so I can't you don't have to, you know, I only have so many hours a day that I could be at the computer. And so I have to make sure that I get a return on everything. And I find so many people just, you know, when they're doing their marketing, they say like You know, they hire they hire someone to do their social media, for example, or they a lot of specific amount of time for their marketing team to do certain things for this. And then they have no way of even knowing. If they can recoup that person's salary, a little loan, get a profit off that and then you said, oh the business. Yeah. So yeah, it's because you're thinking like, if it's that idea of like no be seen, you know, amazing amazing business stories like Amazon. I mean, it turn hot water right now, but 

You've seen that success but it's bad for that idea. But people, you know, it's known that Amazon was not making money for a very long time before they begin to another Amazon. We know today, or I like to think of I love to take the pineapple because Apple was a very Innovative company, you know, it's not just when Steve Jobs was there but like it started out and it, you know, the garage story and like became the startup and technology and gave us her iPhone. So, like all of these things but 

Kind of storyline or watch documentaries of any. I mean, in my opinion, anyone who is great that has a documentary, not everyone has great has a documentary. But if you look if you if you like watch those, it's not a very pretty story in the beginning. It's not a You know, oh, wake. We just did, we, they weren't talking about making six figures, really you? And I mean, it wasn't that wasn't the thing. They were very focused on solving a problem that people had and making life better for people like the people that were targeting. But I think a lot of them had a very strong why there was a very strong wife or what they were doing. And I hope I hope that as business owners even as a 

For years of companies that we get very, we get more connected to that. Why? Because that's what makes it. That's what makes people successful also make an agency successful. Like you said an agency. Like, in my case, At Postali, the reason we do well is because we hire for our why. So by the time they get there. It's like it's not hard to, you know, say like, okay. Are you part? Are you on board? Like, I mean, it's all the second time people may not be, he's got that happens in life too. But it's just one of those. Like when we hire with that in mind, like our hprt post-op, hires with core values, in mind, she hires to see if they would not just be a good culture fit but a good culture, a disloyal like to say, 

It's a lot easier to be connected to that, y verses. Like even as an entrepreneur like you have to be able to know your why, I mean, how else will you make decisions? I don't know. You can't may have based on what makes Al's is doing or Amazon's doing Amazon, McDonald's all the big corporations can afford to you know do everything at one time and throw a lot of money at things and our problem. They can afford to do that. You have to know your why is if again like in my case if my Y is like I just Eddie and the day has cutting into the time. I'm spending with my daughter is cutting into. 

Time that time with my husband or like I feel like it's like causing issues there. I'm not saying that I'm not going to be, I'm not going to pursue my goal because I'm a very ambitious person, but at the same time, like I'm concerned about having fulfilling life. I'm not concerned about how many zeros I can share on social media. It's just not. That does not motivate me period and I'm okay with that. Yeah. Why is that? Such a important question because it's, it's, yes, it's also it's about your capacity and it's about how to be sustainable. And it's about how to, you know, not go into debt and all that. But it's also about those big picture things that like what you ultimately want as a person and was happiest for you and your needs and yeah, nice. It's been really awesome. Thank you all for joining me. This is really fun. You're welcome. I feel like I didn't know. 

I definitely just I'm passionate about educating tell, I really even before you get to the content and can get to all like all of that. You have to kind of our branding anything, right? Human even again in our space little Mark thing. We don't deal with it as much as our clients because they pretty much know what. But that aspect, you know, this all stemmed from that statement of where, you know, we say where the parking Fisher because it's like you have, you just have to know your why you have to know. What you actually want. You have to know what results you are looking for, and really especially for marketing. That's all. We're such problem. 

Ashley: Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. And I think ultimately, it might, but my goal for this podcast is to help people think, more think more in terms of return. So as you say, it's not just about making sure you get a return on money, you spend or whatever, but it's also about like, what do you get out of it as a person? And how does this office is help, you grow your skills or harnesses, enhance your drives to whatever it is that you're doing it, but if you're not measuring that in some way, or assessing that in some way, periodically, you're going to mess it up. And so, yeah, it's not a problem at all. That this is more say about workflows. I call myself up, or content. It's, I call myself a workflow dork. Because I think, I think unless you understand things in that in terms of workflows and objectives. You're not going to go anywhere with a great day. 

Tamara: Okay, maybe, yeah, it's just marketing. There's not one Silver Bullet at all and You know yesterday agency. I have that beauty of you know, it's again a team of supports that and the ability to say. Hey like we need to put it this way or my teammates, Smoky do that. But yeah, you touched on it. Here is like at the end of the day you have gotten your why I got able to bet clients get them to understand and like, you know face what they may truly want for results. And then even then if you are, you know, like you said, focusing on one thing, not spreading yourself super thin. 

To do that but just have connections and refer people and you know, then it's a everyone wins in that situation, right? So yeah. Yeah, then you can get referrals to just yeah. It's like that's another thing is I've everyone's out there so caught up in like making themselves successful. I'm just like, you know, it still takes a village, right is not change, but you know, I still have hope. I have hope that even Ronald, we've all gone through now for the past year and, you know, few days be months that we will evolve and have a more holistic understanding of just business in general. 

Ashley: Yeah. It's interesting to see people changing their actively seeking, to improve their understanding of business. And not just the quick specs, but, like sustainability, and all that fun stuff. So, before I let you go, is there any piece of content or anything Postali has done that really speaks to 

I trying to say. Anything that people could learn from in terms of like as if they want to be able to pivot to a client need. Is there any kind of Specific workflow or piece of content or something that Postali has that would speak to that?

Tamara: Well, I mean we are working on the hierarchy of needs. We have were that's like literally we're still working on that infographic, but I don't feel that it's published. Yeah, told that is published. And even though it's, you know, we always Target law firms. Those are the pepper audience. I would say, even with SEO, for example, we did just publish. 

Like SEO guide for lawyers, but I still think it's very important to read it. Because again, even within own content, even if you're just doing Unit returning, blog posts. Are you doing copywriting? Whatever you're doing. SEO is a consideration, so that you're not just getting, you know, ye got my content, all great. But you're also getting like results from that over time and is compounding over time. That is really, really has a very good guide for just generally understanding SEO and some of the aspects of it. He was some of the tools are beneficial. So I would say that's on our website. I would definitely go check it out and you can actually get to it a lot. 

This podcast when it goes up, but oh, yeah. Yeah. I actually just found it talking about vetting right there, even though our audience is again law firms. Like that's what we do. We do legal marketing. There are a lot of great tidbits that you Still apply to other Industries and since as he always one of our things that we love to do. That's the most recent one that I would say for really good thing to look into and read and you know, take the nuggets from there and apply it to your own business. Whether you are the consumer or the entrepreneur, Iowa's, nice, when they can make a really solid, excellent case, for the benefits of me shaking, and knowing your community and knowing their flow and all that. That's yeah. 

Gone now. So thank you for supporting my advocacy support it. I love it. Huge fan of it. And I think something that is super important is that you still have to focus. But yes, you can still attract people from different, you know, audiences or personas or you can still try to hurt people just because you focus, is it mean that they aren't going to come? They're going to come because you have valuable information, not, maybe, because Was like, in might not be because they actually want to be your client, and that's what I do. Yeah, on my nipple, an official. Yeah, it might have transferable value or they might realize it's good for a clan or whatever or a friend for ya. It doesn't, it doesn't hurt. Even if irrelevant people see it, there is still value. So, all right. We have an awesome day. Thanks so much.